Phenylacetone (P2P) synthesis from benzaldehyde with butanone

MadHatter

Don't buy from me
Resident
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
442
Solutions
1
Reaction score
431
Points
63
Why would you want to replace chloroform? It's easy to synthesize yourself with acetone and bleach. Check youtube.
But if you really need to for some reason, dichloromethane and chloroform are usually interchangeable.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
I tried DCM for the first time, and it failed totally.
I extracted the product with ethyl acetate (more) and xylene (less)-mix.
 

Cbison

Don't buy from me
Member
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
1
How do you get the MPB to solidify? In the freezer i see the crystals but outside the freezer it liquifies.
 

Fenster

Don't buy from me
New Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2022
Messages
92
Reaction score
32
Points
8
Aldol Condensation.

The directions for this are in Organic Reactions



This write up seems to be more inline with what I am seeing. Has anyone actually tried to extract with solvent from the organic layer. Using chloroform won't work, as it's miscible with the organic layer. Unless I'm missing something the write up needs to be tested and modified.

Anyone tried this synth before.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
OK. Just heat the benz-hyde and MEK with hydrochloric acid about 3-5 hours. Temp: 90-110 C.
Just thank me. :)
 
View previous replies…

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
It does the aldol condensation of MEK and benzaldehyde. The product is: Mehtylphenylbutenone.
 

lalalander

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jun 17, 2023
Messages
53
Reaction score
22
Points
8
You seem very sure of your procedure. Can we conclude that you tried it and succeeded?
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
OK. I have spend hundreds of euros to make this work, and now you are questioning will it work?!
I'm really pissed right now! I will not publish... spoon feed my info anyone here from now on.
God damn! I suggest you also read chemistry before you start questioning my methods. If chemistry doesn't interest you, but you want the information on this entire synthesis, which I tried 16 times with difficulty, forget it. I'm not going to answer anyone's questions at all, because I got my knowledge from science articles myself, but I applied it to practice with my own knowledge of chemistry. Yes. Aldol condensation at the point of synthesis works with better yields than in gasification. I am not going to answer anyone about any other point regarding the synthesis in question. Thank you and goodbye!
 

lalalander

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jun 17, 2023
Messages
53
Reaction score
22
Points
8
I don't understand why you find it so offensive. I was just trying to communicate using formal language.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
I'm sorry about my frustration. I was very tired at time. The aldol works.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
And, using "Twodogs" and "Bio"s procedure, the acetoxyphenylpropene aso worked like a charm.
 

lalalander

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jun 17, 2023
Messages
53
Reaction score
22
Points
8
It's okay. We're all human beings at the end of the day. Can you share the amounts of reagent you use?
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
The best amount I got, was the minimal amount I used the reagents. So, put 10 g of benzaldehyde + 25 g of MEK + 30 g of hydrochloric acid. I got 28 grams of crystals, that were wet, and when I got the dry as I CAN get them, I got 13 grams of Methylphenylbutenone.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
I got the melting point of MPB wrong, it is: 37-38°C
 

Dj.Tizo

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jan 20, 2024
Messages
13
Reaction score
4
Points
3
Hi
Do I bubble hcl gas, or can I add to RM
 

Fenster

Don't buy from me
New Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2022
Messages
92
Reaction score
32
Points
8
Ok, step 3 - I added NaOH solution heated to 50c and put into mag Stir after 6 hours a thick almost solid creamy mess was in my rbf. I added DCM and two layers appeared. At first, I was very happy!!! As the creamy thick layer sat on the bottom and I thought the clearer layer was the DCM extracted goodies was on top. No no no..... The Milky thick layer was the DCM. I know for a fact that when I remove the DCM I'm not going to have a yellow clear oil aka p2p.


@HEISENBERG

Have you team reviewed this process before publishing. Seems the experts have gone silent on this proceedures. Would be nice to get some support on a method your team published.

Ok, so I'll attempt Distillation on the creamy mess and see what comes over.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
Just use my own method, that is: Heat MEK and benz, with hydrochloric acid: 90-110 C, 3-5 hours.
Then put 10% KOH-solution in, and crystals appear immediately. Get rid of the water. Put them in freezer. Get rid of the oil. Pure, white crystals. ...you're wellcome!
 
View previous replies…

Cbison

Don't buy from me
Member
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Do you cool the BENZ & MEK mixture before adding the 10% KoH solution. With this procedure there will be no need for vacuum distillation right.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
It's cooled to room temperature. Then collect the brown organic layer. Put 20 ml 10% KOH-solution in it. If the pH is too acidic or too basic, get it to pH: 7. Get rid of the water, when the pH is 7. Put the flask in freezer for at least 4 hours. Discard the upper oily shit when frozen. No need for distillation or even drying the solution, because the crystals appear immediately in the flask, you just have to freeze them, to get the oily layer, witch is just some by-products.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
I forgot to mention, that before you put the KOH-solution in, wash the organic layer with same amount of acid you used.
 

Cbison

Don't buy from me
Member
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
1
I already have the MPB solution and would like to get the crystals without distillation. The adol condensation was done through acid gassing. Do you think if acid is introduced in the Benz + MEK solution through gassing and heated up to 90-110°C for 3-5 hrs and washed with hcl before adding 10% KoH, is there a possibility of crystals precipitate immediately? Is it important to freeze solution to get crystals and what are your reagent measurements.
 

TheNut22

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
186
Reaction score
89
Points
28
OH my god. DONT wash with acid, OK. Same amount of water that you used acid.
 

bigbadbear

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Jul 1, 2023
Messages
23
Reaction score
9
Points
3
 

bigbadbear

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Jul 1, 2023
Messages
23
Reaction score
9
Points
3
For the second step, can I use a 15-liter flask ? and carry out the extraction process in a 50-liter plastic barrel?
 

Irving Langmuir

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jan 23, 2024
Messages
19
Reaction score
11
Points
3
Hi everyone !

I've tried this synthesis twice, and here's my conclusion on this one.

Firstly, I'm far from being a trained chemist, so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt. Feel free to correct what I say.

The reactions and mechanisms are the result of my research and my understanding of synthesis, and are therefore also open to criticism.

I just saw that a lot of people had already discussed the subject, so I hope my post won't be redundant. Also, the link at the end of my post has already been posted on the topic. Sorry if you don't learn anything from my post.


Step 1: crossed aldol condensation :
Normally we use a small excess of MEK in this reaction because ketones can self-condense, but this reaction is thermodynamically devafable, and will be done up to a maximum of 5% in the literature I've been able to find. Nevertheless, according to this paper, benzaldehyde can react with the final product, which would greatly lower the yield, hence the use of excess MEK to make sure that the benzaldehyde reacts with the right molecule. (Moreover, according to the same paper, distillation between crossed aldol condensation and Baeyer-Villiger oxidation is not useful, as the by-products will not react during the Baeyer-Villiger oxidation and can be eliminated with the next distillation). I wondered whether it wouldn't be better to add the benzaldehyde drop by drop, which would make sure there was an excess of MEK, and thus prevent the benzaldehyde from reacting with the newly formed product. And since the aldol self-condensation of ketones is not very favorable, proceeding in this way may be better for yield. But as I said, what I'm saying needs to be verified.

As a catalyst we can normally use either an acid or a base for aldol reactions. I assume, however, that here we're using an acid to avoid a Cannizzaro reaction, because benzaldehyde is non-enolizable. By using an acid catalyst, we go through the formation of an enol instead of the enolate.

As an acid catalyst, I tried a strong addition of concentrated H2SO4 the first time I did this reaction, and the second time I only added a few drops. The difference I noticed between the two was that if too much H2SO4 was added, the product polymerized, making distillation almost impossible due to bumping.

Crossed aldol condensation will lead to 3-methyl-4-phenyl-3-buten-2-one.

For Baeyer-Villiger oxidation, I wanted to try perborate or sodium percarbonate. The only problem I saw with using sodium percarbonate was that it would react with the GAA and gradually neutralize it. And indeed this is a pretty bad idea, having tried it on a small scale. Percarbonate has trouble solubilizing, and needs a medium containing a little more water. Once that's done, you have to be careful not to release too much CO2. Peracetic acid is formed in situ and reacted with 3-methyl-4-phenyl-3-buten-2-one. To make my percarbonate solubilize, I added a little H2O2. But I'd say, if you don't have 50% H2O2, don't waste your time on this synthesis. And that's my conclusion. Although this synthesis may seem attractive, it's tedious and labor-intensive, especially with all those vacuum distillations (I've tried without, it works, but leads to working with high temperatures, and I've even managed to destroy product that way!). So I'd advise anyone to turn to another synthesis method. I managed to get what I think was the desired product in the end, but in my opinion not enough to justify the whole procedure. For those who want to know more, I recommend reading the paper, searching for "Two dogs aldol", learning about the mechanisms of aldol reaction, baeyer-villiger oxidation and hydrolysis of esters.



 

WillD

Expert
Joined
Jul 19, 2021
Messages
774
Reaction score
1,066
Points
93
Excess MEK also acts as a solvent for the reaction (except what you wrote). The release of a product without distillation is possible after dilution with water (excess mek and other impurities) and extracting the sediment in the form of oil. The oil crystallizes well into an intermediate product after recrystallization with ethanol. At this stage, we get the first stage product without complicated manipulations (it is not necessary to extract chloroform, and in general, the technique in this topic needs to be slightly corrected). We cannot use hydroxide, this will give another by-product as a result.
 
View previous replies…

Irving Langmuir

Don't buy from me
Resident
Language
🇺🇸
Joined
Jan 23, 2024
Messages
19
Reaction score
11
Points
3
That's interesting, thank you! What would you correct about the technique in this topic?
 

Cbison

Don't buy from me
Member
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Kindly share the procedure of obtaining MPB oil from crude mixture if you don’t want to vacuum distill.
 

Cbison

Don't buy from me
Member
Language
🇬🇧
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
1
William D. Can you pls pls explain the procedure of getting MPB crystal without doing the vacuum distillation. I have followed the steps suggested but it seems I can’t get it right. I have washed, I have neutralized, I have dissolved in ethanol and I have frozen but for some reason I don’t know why my crystal liquifies at room temperature . What am I doing wrong in this procedure. Can I proceed with the Baeyer villiger reaction without extracting the crystal? Pls your experienced contribution will be appreciated
 
Top